Dallas vs Cleveland in the late 60s

[CSKreager]

Why did the Cowboys struggle against the Browns from 1968-69?

They had won their first Thanksgiving game ever vs Cleveland in 1966. They blew them out in a 1967 East playoff game to set up the Ice Bowl.

When Green Bay came back to Earth, it looked like the Cowboys time to claim the NFL Throne.

And yet they had a stumbling block in the Browns, who by this time no longer had Jim Brown.

Tom Landry could usually hold his own against NFL elite, but for some reason these two years he couldn’t beat Blanton Collier.

They beat Cleveland in the 68 regular season en route to 12-2, but the Browns got to host a playoff game via rotation luck and sure enough Don Meredith’s last game was a disaster.

1969, they lost twice to Cleveland: 42-10 in the regular season, 38-14 in the playoffs.

Cleveland’s roster didn’t exactly scream elite outside of Kelly and a young Paul Warfield. And what made those losses look worse was that those same Browns basically no showed the NFL title games vs Baltimore/Minnesota to the point where you cannot convince me the Cowboys would have fared any worse.

So what exactly was it? The Cowboys weren’t one dimensional. Too 5 in points scored and allowed both years.

And yet they couldn’t beat a Browns team that probably wasn’t as good as the 68 or 69 Raiders that also lost on those championship game Sundays

[Brian wolf]

Whereas Ryan was cold against Dallas from 1966-68, losing four straight, Nelson was red hot, winning three in a row from 1968-69.
What helped the Browns also, was Dallas switching to Morton in 1969, who struggled.

Had Ryan started over Nelson both years, would they had beaten Dallas in postseason? Would Warfield had been traded with Ryan the starter instead?

[ShinobiMusashi]

This is a series from the 60's I've been interested in, really sticks out on paper, I can imagine these were some physical and chippy games there by 68-69. I always point to this when I try to make a case for putting the Baltimore Ravens in the NFC East in an alternate 2002 realignment take of mine. Browns vs Cowboys, Cardinals, Giants, Eagles, Redskins was a thing for a short period and even though they technically let go of the lineage of the Browns there was still a spiritual connection there to where I think they would have fit naturally to make that the NFC's 6 team division(while replacing them in the AFC Central 6 team division with the new Texans).

[Halas Hall]

Good thread. Just one man's thoughts -I think the Browns had a lot of solid players? I think 1973 was their first losing season. End Gary Collins and DB Erich Barnes - Hall of the Very Good, Defensive End Jack Gregory and K Don Cockcroft, linebacker Jim Houston, Center Fred Hoaglin, End Milt Morin played for over a decade, Dick Schafrath and Gene Hickerson are at least in the Hall of Very Good.

You're right Dallas always had trouble with them. Even when Dallas won 6-2 in the Cleveland mud in 1970 it was a slugfest. I don't have an easy answer for why they played poorly against the Colts and Vikings in 1968/69.

[JuggernautJ]

Good thread. Just one man's thoughts -I think the Browns had a lot of solid players? I think 1973 was their first losing season. End Gary Collins and DB Erich Barnes - Hall of the Very Good, Defensive End Jack Gregory and K Don Cockcroft, linebacker Jim Houston, Center Fred Hoaglin, End Milt Morin played for over a decade, Dick Schafrath and Gene Hickerson are at least in the Hall of Very Good.

You're right Dallas always had trouble with them. Even when Dallas won 6-2 in the Cleveland mud in 1970 it was a slugfest. I don't have an easy answer for why they played poorly against the Colts and Vikings in 1968/69.

The late 1960's Browns were very talented but (after 1964) just couldn't win the "big one."
And, of course, they've never even made it to the Super Bowl.

But, as HH noted, they had very fine players.
Leroy Kelly is one of my favorite backs from that era.
To me he seemed like a "poor man's" Gale Sayers (I was very young at the time).
There is only one Sayers but Kelly was similarly slippery and lasted a lot longer.

And Hickerson finally made it to the Hall of Fame (2007).

Those Brownies teams were very talented.
Could it be that Blanton Collier was not quite the coach that Don Shula and Bud Grant (or Tom Landry) were?

[74_75_78_79_]

How would you all compare the '68 & '69 Browns to Schottenheimer's '86 & '87 installments?

[Brian wolf]

Collier was very good in his own right, going 2-1 against Landry in postseason, and shutting out Shula in 1964 before being shutout in 1968. He was 0-2 against Lombardi and Grant.

The 1965 Championship game might have went to the Browns in consecutive years had the Packers not gotten the disputed FG that tied it up against Baltimore. Even in the Championship game that they lost to GB, the Browns had three TD passes that Collins and Warfield narrowly missed, with Brown dropping a tough pass in the endzone. Ryan was not afraid to go for the big play.

The Colts were so determined to get revenge in the 1968 NFL Championship game that they were drained once it was over. They really left their mental aspect in Cleveland and couldnt get it back for Miami, though many of the players felt they were prepared for NY. The Jets just won the line of scrimmage.